Humint Events Online: Reality and the Purdue Cartoon

Monday, January 21, 2008

Reality and the Purdue Cartoon

Here's a video of the Purdue cartoon of the WTC hit (complete video embedded below), and here are two screen grabs of the hole they say was made by the plane in tower 1:





Here was the hole in WTC1 on 9/11:

(click to enlarge)

So the Purdue cartoon fails on every level:

1) Simple reality that a real plane would not slip past spandrel plates like a ghost. Simple reality that aluminum sheets would not slice through thick steel column like a knife through butter. Simple reality that steel spandrel plates would not wave in the wind like paper. I mean, what the fuck??? The government paid them for this crap?

2) Common logic in terms of how an aluminum plane would act when crashing into a steel and concrete tower and how a fuel-laden wings would behave when crashing into a steel and concrete tower

3) REALITY in terms of how there was a massive explosion at the point of entry (as shown in actual videos of the 1st hit) that they do not model

4) Reality in terms of the hole that was produced in the tower by the "event". Why are the spandrel plates so prominent and the massive steel columns like toothpicks?

It seems to me, and I know I am just a whacked out conspiracy blogger, but it seems to me that the money that Purdue spent on this computer model would be much better spent trying to figure out how (or even if) a Boeing 767 crashing into the tower could produce this odd hole in the tower that was seen with the column sections dangling down blocking the entry hole and the 97th floor blown away somehow.

16 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

great! an official simulation to justify official cartoons.
where is elmer fudd when you need him?

1:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wholeheartedly agree.

This is a far more accurate simulation of what happened.

10:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

if a real aluminum 767 (with a plastic nosecone) were to really strike the massive steel & concrete WTC with a force equivalent to X then the massive steel/concrete WTC would also be striking the aluminum/plastic 767 with the same force equivalent to X.

12:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Spooked911,

An honest question that I'd like an answer to.

Have you ever personally seen an aircraft, large or small, military or civilian, any sort of aircraft, fly at high speed, by high speed I mean faster than 200 or 300 mph?

7:46 AM  
Blogger spooked said...

Have you ever personally seen an aircraft, large or small, military or civilian, any sort of aircraft, fly at high speed, by high speed I mean faster than 200 or 300 mph?

Well, I've been IN jets going almost 600mph on my various travels.

I suppose I've seen fast jets from the ground that are way up at high altitude.

But see one close up going fast? I saw military jets going very fast at an airshow many years ago.

Oh, actually, I saw some F16s fly fast over the Indy 500 when I went to it last year. And I guess I have seen other military jets going high speed recently.

WHY???

11:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"WHY???"

Because you seriously underestimate the energy that an aircraft has, particularly a large airliner, when traveling at high speed.

You underestimate this because you have never seen nor been around aircraft enough to appreciate the potential energy that exists when such a mass of aircraft piece parts are accelerated up to 500 mph.

You, once again, are showing the weakest of all your weak areas (and you have a bunch) - thinking you are smarter about specific things than you are. You know nothing about things aeronautical or airplane-ish and as such you should not opine in any way, shape or form about them whether in regards to if an aircraft hit the WTC or why they fly or whathaveyou.

Stick with what you are good at - which is I have no idea but I'm sure you feel like you are good at something.

6:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You keep harping on an “aluminum” aircraft, as with this paragraph:

“Common logic in terms of how an aluminum plane would act when crashing into a steel and concrete tower and how a fuel-laden wings would behave when crashing into a steel and concrete tower”

Let’s take your second comment from above:

“…how a (sic) fuel-laden wings would behave when crashing into a steel and concrete tower”

Point 1: The 757-200 wingspan is 124 feet. Fuselage diameter is 12 feet, which means there is approximately 55 feet of wing per side of the aircraft. Total fuel carried is 11,500 gallons, but an estimated 10,000 gallons was on board at impact. Each wing holds 2,170 gallons and the center fuel tank holds 6,900 gallons. Aircraft fuel systems burn wing fuel first, so the approximately 1,500 gallons that were burned during flight, split between the two wing tanks, left approximately 1,420 gallons of fuel per wing and a full center fuel tank of 6,900 gallons.

One gallon of jet aviation fuel (Jet A) weighs approximately 6.84 lbs per gallon, so lets round down to 6 lbs. That means the weight of each wing’s fuel component weighed 8,520 lbs, or a little over 4 tons. That would mean you have a moment body 55’ feet long weighing at LEAST 4 tons. Traveling at something around 750 feet per second.

Add in the weight of the center fuel tank, which would be 41,400 lbs, or a tad over 20 tons. Add in the approximately 30 tons of dense, heavy metal such as titanium, steel and other structural metals that are required for an aircraft frame and you have a significant, extremely heavy structural mass.

Your poster who continually talks about a “plastic nosecone” is wrong on more than one account. It is not plastic, but a carbon-fiber composite material that covers a fuselage structural element that includes a titanium and steel bulkhead.

I know you seem to believe that this sort of physical entity, a 55’ long body weighing over 4 tons traveling at 750’ per second lacks any mass or strength whatsoever when it impacts a latticework of steel spandrels held together by rivets and aluminum cladding, but we’ll leave that as it is for just a moment.

As a side note, I also know you don’t give much credence to the force of a liquid or a gas when it comes in contact with a significantly stronger material such as steel, but I would ask you to get smart on this and research an event such as a Cat 5 hurricane (do a search for Hurricane Dean and Costa Maya) and what the water energy does to steel girders and what the wind can do to steel structures. Again, speed and mass can equate to a significant force even when merely a liquid or a gas.

The thickness of the steel that made up the spandrels that were linked together to form the outside of the upper floors of the WTC was approximately 3/8” with a box depth of approximately 1’2” (or forming a 14” square box). These outer wall spandrels were connected together with 4 bolts and light welding. Both this data comes from FEMA’s WTC Steel Data Collection, page D-5).

Based on my other comment left here that you need to stay within whatever core competency you think you have and to stay away from areas where you are at a quite obvious disadvantage intellectually, I ask you this now, based on the aforementioned data:

What is going to win? A series of steel spandrels, 3/8’ in thickness with a supporting box of 14” square (made of the aforementioned 3/8” steel) with 26” of glass window between the spandrels….

Or a 55’ wing filled with 4 tons of fuel traveling at 750 feet per second?

Tell me again what is going to break and what is going to “crumple up”?

Tell us again (or get your anonymous physics bootlicker to tell us) about potential and kinetic energy and which of these two physical bodies (the stationary spandrels on a building or an aircraft full of fuel traveling at 750 feet per second) had how much of each.

I can’t *wait* for your response! This ought to be a good one!

7:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Waiting.......

12:51 PM  
Blogger spooked said...

Well, whoever you are, long-winded anonymous one, the first thing is that the plane that officially struck the tower was a 767, which has a longer wing-span (150 feet). So you got that bit wrong, just so you know.

More importantly, I am not under-estimating anything. The point of this post was that the Purdue cartoon failed to model reality. In the Naudet firemen video of the 1st hit, there were huge fireballs where the "wings" hit. The Purdue cartoon has the wings going into the tower intact and then spraying fuel forward, only. So that is a problem.

The Purdue video also has all the other problems associated with it that I mention, that you do not refute.

As far as the wings, I have always granted that it is a complicated impact-- and I have tended not to focus on the north tower impact, because the data was a bit more murky as to what happened with the wings. For the South tower, the "wings" clearly go in without exploding and the steel columns were thicker there (13/16 inch on two sides).

My hypothesis still is that the plane impacts were faked, and the wing holes were made by shaped charges of some type. This is for a number of different reasons that I have gone over and over here on this site.

Now, just so you don't think I am avoiding your question about "who wins", I will re-iterate that this impact is complicated and I don't say absolutely that wings couldn't go in for the north tower.

But please remember Newton's 3rd law-- and that the force exerted on the tower by the plane wings will match the force exerted on the plane wings by the tower. Simply looking at potential and kinetic energy is misleading.

Now, the leading edge of the wing is relatively thin aluminum-- and there is simply no doubt to me that that aluminum will shred on the thick steel columns as it impacts. Then there is another layer of relatively thin aluminum that holds the fuel-- that aluminum should also shred on the thick steel columns as it impacts. Behind the two layers of relatively thin aluminum is the fuel, which I grant has great density and kinetic energy and can exert a large force. So the fuel might be able to bash in some of the columns. I still tend to doubt that the fuel would slice through steel however, as was seen. I still strongly doubt that any wing will make it past the outer columns and spandrels without breaking and spraying a significant amount of fuel backwards.

Does this help you?

1:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

""the potential energy that exists when such a mass of aircraft piece parts are accelerated up to 500 mph.""

exactly, @6:59!

if a real aluminum aircraft piece is accelerated up to 500mph and impacts a steel columned wtc at up to 500mph then real science tells us that the steel columned wtc is also impacting the aluminum aircraft piece at the same 'up to 500mph'.

good old science!

8:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Now, the leading edge of the wing is relatively thin aluminum--"

You really are at your best (and most hilarious) when you start talking about things you have absolutely no clue about.

How thick, at its thickest point, do you think an airliner wing is?

If you guessed 4 feet (which you wouldn't, based on your "relatively thuin aluminum" comment) you'd be close.

You have this fallacy in your head that a 767 or whatever type aircraft has these thin fragile little paper-thin aluminum wings that create enough lift to elevate a hundred tons up into the air, at times 5 or more miles high and at speeds approaching mach 1.

These are robust structures with a surface area of nearly 2,000 square feet in the 757 class. Yes, there is an aluminum covering on the wing but the internal rib and support structure are monolithic aluminum entities, each machined from a single piece of aluminum plate. There is also a titanium support structure box to support the engines.

These are not the little girlie-man, pink fringed wussie little pieces of crap you seem to think they are. When is the last time you were in an airliner when it hit a patch of severe clear air turbulence and the damn thing bounced at a frequency of +/- 3 g's and the wings flexed like all get out. Me? Last week on a flight back to the east coast from LAX on board an Airbus 320.

You really need to learn more about aviation things or shut up about aviation things.

Oh...and I eagerly await a something from your Anonymous bootlicker on potential and kinetic energy with regards to a moving (750 fps) mass (100 tons) as it impacts those 3/8" spandrels set on 3'4" centers.

Oh....and your other buddy at 8:27 who seems to think that a stationary object has just as much kinetic energy as one moving at 750 fps needs a basic physics refresher, as well. See if you can help him out.

Wait....it seems you think that is the case as well.

Oh well....so much for having an academically-based discussion involving aerodynamical physics.

You also mentioned the "other" points of the Purdue study as if I supported your claptrap since I didn't discuss them. I will state categorically for the record that THOSE points you made are just as much bullshit as the wing issue that I already addressed.

9:09 PM  
Blogger spooked said...

Oh if only your reading comprehension matched your attitude, 9:09 PM.

"a stationary object has just as much kinetic energy as one moving at 750 fps"

We never said that. Are you denying Newton's 3rd law?

Further, I never said that wings were flimsy or weak-- I understand the lift they provide to a large craft. What I said was that they are covered by thin aluminum sheets, and same for the fuel tank. Sure there are heavier parts of the wing-- that doesn't mean the wing can't fragment as it smashes into a denser object. Don't forget the concrete floors that the wings would have hit.

So I guess you think a real plane would slip past spandrel plates like a ghost? Have you even looked at the video?

You're saying there were no explosions in where the "wings" impacted in the first hit?

You're saying that aluminum sheets would slice through thick steel columns like a knife through butter, as shown in the video?

7:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jesus H Christ! You keep talking about the wings being aluminum sheets! Do me a favor. Go down to your local airport, assuming you have one, and see if you can get a tour of a hangar with a real aircraft in it - preferably a large one. Take a look at the wings. Talk to a maintenance guy and ask him - no shit - what the construction process is for the wings and what they are made of. Please. Do this before you hurt yourself and you say *another word* on anything even remotely related to aviation.

And I love how you wriggle around like a crawfish when challenged with physical facts that don't fit in your weird little world. Are you telling me now that you do not equate the aircraft impacting the WTC walls at 500 mph with a situation whereby the walls were traveling at 500 mph impacting a stationary airplane?

Kinetic energy trumps potential energy *every time*.

Still waiting on your Anonymous bootlicker and his take on kinetic vs potential energy.

"You're saying there were no explosions in where the "wings" impacted in the first hit?"

Once again you display your ignorance in great fashion. There was a reason I asked if you had ever seen an aircraft fly by at high speed. Little F-16's don't count, although after that experience I'm sure you count yourself an expert on all things related to military aviation.

Of freaking (I am trying to be polite here) course there were explosions from wing fuel in the first WTC impact. YOU CAN SEE THEM ON THE TAPE. The wings *are* going to be shredded as they break apart the spandrels, and if the wings *are* going to be shredded then the wing internal fuel tank *is* going to rupture and then a fuel-air- explosion *is* going to happen - just like it did.

"So I guess you think a real plane would slip past spandrel plates like a ghost? Have you even looked at the video?"

You don't read and retain things very well, do you? I asked earlier in this thread what would win - a 3/8" steel spandrel with a 14" support box beam behind it or an aircraft wing, 4' thick at its deepest part, full of 4 tons of fuel, traveling at 750 feet per second. What is going to stop that wing, Spooky?????? 3/8" of steel? held together by 4 bolts?

I'll ask that again and I'd like an answer.

WHAT IS GOING TO STOP IT? 3/8" of steel?

The wing is GOING to fragment as it breaks through that 3/8" steel barrier. It IS going to shred. It IS going to rupture the fuel tanks. It IS going to bust through those steel spandrels in what appears like a "ghost" plane because there is nothing to stop a body with that mass and weight and traveling that fast.

Read that again - there is nothing to stop it! I still don't get where you come off thinking those 3/8" steel spandrels with a 14" support box beam (made of the same 3/8" steel) will stop 100 tons traveling at 750 feet per second so it crumples against the 3/8" steel and falls to the street below. Hell...I tell you what - go get a sheet of 3/8" steel, find one of your biggest neighbors (because i doubt you'd be able to do this), give him a BIG sledge hammer and have him beat up on that 3/8" steel for a few minutes and I bet you....I freakin' bet you that there will be deformation to the steel - from some guy with a sledge hammer that weighs probably 24 lbs.

How is 3/8" steel going to stop 100 tons going 500 mph?

7:44 AM  
Blogger spooked said...

Hoo boy, you got a whole of wrong going on there.

1st-- Newton's 3rd law is independent of kinetic (or even potential energy).

2nd-- a little odd how first you say how strong wings are then say they would break up on impact.

3rd-- the Purdue video implies the wings broke through intact-- therein lies the rub.

4th-- the Purdue video shows the plane going through --but not breaking! --one of those spandrel plates you keep obsessing about. That's the unreal part.

5th-- I only said the wing was covered with thin aluminum sheets, I didn't say that the whole wing was nothing but thin aluminum.

6th-- I never said the spandrel plates would stop the plane.

7th-- you really need to chill, dude.

9:41 AM  
Blogger spooked said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cddIgb1nGJ8

Note the spandrel plate hit by the tail at 1:05.

Note the fireball only coming out the far side at 0:50 or so.

Note the torn aluminum sheets cutting through massive steel core columns at 1:30 on.

9:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just as I though. Like talking to a tree stump. About as intelligent as one, too.

11:48 AM  

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