Interesting Comment from "OS3" on NORAD Radar
in my last post:
FWIW:
OTICIX= Officer in Tactical Command Information Exchange System
TADIX= Tactical Data Information Exchange System
TIBS= Tactical Information Broadcast System
FOTC= Force Over-the-Horizon Track Coordinator
What is so painfully obvious about the abouve [sic] eroneous [sic] assumption is that it pretends to know the exact capabilities of our theater tactical and national defense grid.So..... let me get this straight, NORAD (or TBMD) tracks the sky constantly to look for missiles-- even over the US (not just things coming from over the ocean). Yet how do they tell a missile from the thousands of commercial craft out there? They filter the commercial craft out. How do they do that? Well, the only way I can think they could screen out a fast traveling commercial jet from a missile is if they look at the plane's transponder or its IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) beacon. But what if the transponder or the IFF beacon is turned off? Wouldn't the plane be picked up by this system? Wouldn't this therefore imply that NORAD/AOR/TBMD knew exactly where the hijacked planes were on 9/11? Am I missing something?
Ask you [sic] yourself- have you ever heard of OTICIX? TADIX? TIBS? GCCS?
FOTC? Thats [sic] just to name a few.
There's no way a cruise missle [sic] would "evade" radar. The notion is rediculuous [sic]. First of all, there's an entire joint based database system that all it does it is look for missles 24 hours a day 365 days a year. One particular facet is called the TBMD Theater Balistic Missle Defense System, which includes but is not limited to Nuclear missiles. This database correlates the performance and characteristic of an "inflight" to even identify what type of missile it could be by using speed, size, point of origin etc etc......
And this database is networked around the world. So where as someone in the caspain [sic] sea may not see a missile in flight because that's not their AOR (Area Of Responsibility) NORAD definately would. And if not NORAD, there more than one local command track information site in that AOR, so someone would have seen it. Period.
Secondly, you need an infrastructure to fire a cruise missle, satalite [sic] or laser to guid [sic] it to its target. You have to give it coordinates....All of these tasks require that someone put the corridinates [sic] in, and essentially aim it. And well, who do you think in the military is just going to input coordinates that are for the Pentagon? You might say that they couldn't know...that a piece of paper just spits out a bunch of numbers and viola you just input them and press go. Whoever fires that missile, as an operator, knows exactly where that missile is going, even more so if its just one.
Lastly, why on earth would planes get close enough to the pentagon to evade NORAD. Well that's exactly why they were commercial aircraft and that's exactly what hit the Pentagon.
When you're using a system like GCCS (Global Command and Control Systems) you have to filter out certain track types.
Why? Do you know how many commercial aircraft there are in the sky at any one moment of the day? Thousands! Can you imagine as a radar operator trying to track each and every one as a hostile threat before 9/11?
FWIW:
OTICIX= Officer in Tactical Command Information Exchange System
TADIX= Tactical Data Information Exchange System
TIBS= Tactical Information Broadcast System
FOTC= Force Over-the-Horizon Track Coordinator
posted by spooked at 9:57 PM
6 Comments:
Turning OFF the transponder will bring about MORE attention to the aircraft......So,why did the "hijackers" want to differentiate their flights from the thousands of others on that day?
That's exactly what I'm wondering!
thank you for correcting my spelling let me get back to you on your queastion as right now im using my pda to type all this up. usinng a stylus just isn't going to cut as editing is very frustrating.
"So..... let me get this straight, NORAD (or TBMD) tracks the sky constantly to look for missiles-- even over the US (not just things coming from over the ocean)."
Absolutely.
"Yet how do they tell a missile from the thousands of commercial craft out there?"
Because of the performance and characteristics of the track as correlated by a database. TBMD is connected to a network of databases. You need to stop thinking of TBMD as a stand alone information site.
"They filter the commercial craft out. How do they do that? Well, the only way I can think they could screen out a fast traveling commercial jet from a missile is if they look at the plane's transponder or its IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) beacon."
No. Cruise missiles and commercial airliners are not even close in speed characteristics. Cruise missiles travel super sonically, typically ranging from speeds of Mach 2 to 3 sometimes even faster. Not even the fastest commercial airliners reaches those speeds and we don't have supersonic passenger jets like france does.
If a cruise missile was fired at the pentagon, then it would stick out like a sore thumb. A transponder has nothing to do with it at all. So there's no way NORAD would just simply miss a track like this even inspite of its size.
A transponder is definitely not what our military and civilian radar stations solely rely on to differentiate track types.
"But what if the transponder or the IFF beacon is turned off? Wouldn't the plane be picked up by this system? Wouldn't this therefore imply that NORAD/AOR/TBMD knew exactly where the hijacked planes were on 9/11?"
What I meant to say about filtering tracks out is that NORAD at the time wasn't really interested in commercial air traffic. That's the FAA's job. My point was that there are thousands of planes up in the sky at any one moment of the day. You could not have expected NORAD to be able to track them all as hostiles especially in that scenario and time frame on 9/11. It was simply brilliant to use a commercial airliner because at the point it became a weapon, it was disguised with all the other airline traffic, and so at that point you had to treat every commercial airliner as a threat. That's a nightmare. That is why GCCS for instance has the ability to filter out types of tracks. As an operator you need the ability to have your interface focus only on the stuff you're looking for.
"Am I missing something?"
Yes, when you say "NORAD radar" you seem to think that NORAD has a couple of satellite dishes up around some mountain somewhere in Colorado.
The grid is so massive its scary. Its a network of radar installations and satellites all over the entire country and around the world. Its a cooperative joint based network effort that includes platforms from every branch of the military and even federal agencies. You have servers that serve out information on just certain things like intel satellite imagery and you have other servers feeding acoustic readings for submarines that are all routed and correlated to specific commands. It is like the internet but just for the military.
For example, when I input a new track into my station I can specify the type of sensor that tracked it if I manually choose to do so. Well, let me just say that the sensor selection is huge-it doesn't just say "RADAR".
Stop thinking about Radar and "contact tracking" as some satellite dish just pinning around. And start thinking about it as one huge information superhighway.
You know, on a off topic note, GCCS is really pretty scary in its robust and powerful capabilities and its just ONE type of interface. You would be surprised to find out GCCS future capability, if it isn't already, is to be networked into 23 government agencies through the NCS(national Communications System)
which is managed by DISN (Defense Information System Network) Whose executive agent is Donald Rumsfeld.
Agencies like:
Department of State
Treasury
Commerce
defense
Justice
Interior
Agriculture
Health and Human Services
Transportation
Energy
Veterans Affairs
CIA
General Services Administration
US Information Agency
National Aeronautics and Space administration
FEMA
Nuclear Regulatory Commission
Postal Service
Federal Reserve System
NSA
Joint Chiefs of Staff
The point is, NORAD while a master like component of information, the grid you theorize a cruise missile going through, is a grid where NORAD is just the tip of the iceberg.
So just because you turn a transponder off doesn't mean squat to our sensor systems. That's why you disguise yourself as airline traffic...because, well, you are airline traffic.
"Turning OFF the transponder will bring about MORE attention to the aircraft......So,why did the "hijackers" want to differentiate their flights from the thousands of others on that day?"
As far as I know the only hijacked plane that turned off the transponder was the one that hit the Pentagon.
But lets back up for a second here.
Why do you presume to know what the hijackers "wanted" to do? What if in the pilots turned it off hoping to bring attention to themselves as a last ditch effort to notify the FAA of trouble....Or what if the hijacker with tons of knobs and buttons before him coincidentally turned it off by accident? I do not know. But I do know that turning off a transponder isn't going to fool anyone in NORAD as to what type of track it is much less magically turn it into a cruise missile.
I also wanted to state that even though some cruise missiles can travel at subsonic speeds, like a tomahawk, they're not the same size and give distinctly different sensor signatures than that of a Commercial Airliner because of this big difference.
I worked on IFF in the Marines. The point here is this, civilian planes CANNOT fly into the airspace around the Pentagon. They do not have the proper IFF code and will be shot down. The anti-artillery is automatic. It'll shoot down anything without the proper IFF including planes that have turned their IFF off. The ONLY planes that can get into that airspace without being shot down are... MILITARY PLANES. 911 was 100% an inside job. Think about it.
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