The Planted Wheel in the Columns
Good collection of evidence here, even though the author seems to support the official plane wheel story.
I previously discussed why this imagery was bogus here, here, and here. If nothing else, the wheel was certainly planted, as there is no way it would survive that fall stuck in there, when you can see it is not really tightly packed in between the two columns-- the wheel is leaning over and there is a gap between the tire and the column.
I like the fact that the column set knocked out was 330.
Things that make you go, hmmm.....
UPDATE: The author of the piece has responded by updating his site, linking to this post, linking to some additional pictures and adding several comments here. Worth checking out. Also, the item I previously thought was maybe a carry-on bag (putatively from a plane) actually looks to be some sort of weird fold-up seat or folding pad. Don't really know WHAT it is.
UPDATE 2: The author of the piece has also linked to the DemUnderground thread on this topic; the DU thread has now been locked. According to DU, Cryptome published some "bigoted" material in the past.
I previously discussed why this imagery was bogus here, here, and here. If nothing else, the wheel was certainly planted, as there is no way it would survive that fall stuck in there, when you can see it is not really tightly packed in between the two columns-- the wheel is leaning over and there is a gap between the tire and the column.
I like the fact that the column set knocked out was 330.
Things that make you go, hmmm.....
UPDATE: The author of the piece has responded by updating his site, linking to this post, linking to some additional pictures and adding several comments here. Worth checking out. Also, the item I previously thought was maybe a carry-on bag (putatively from a plane) actually looks to be some sort of weird fold-up seat or folding pad. Don't really know WHAT it is.
UPDATE 2: The author of the piece has also linked to the DemUnderground thread on this topic; the DU thread has now been locked. According to DU, Cryptome published some "bigoted" material in the past.
posted by spooked at 8:52 AM
29 Comments:
The cryptome article has the look and feel of a propaganda piece. Like something out of P.M. or even the obnoxious liar "william segar". The non de plume "John Young" isn't exactly a comforting sign that the article is propaganda-free.
Like nearly all analysts of the OCT, the author fails the most basic test of authenticity by accepting the unproven, Official lie that a plane or planes crashed into the WTC.
The aircraft wheel was planted and
that is that. No need for the bright lights and fancy diagrams. A lie is a lie.
Done deal but anyway, could wheel, from a light (weight) alloy, remain undistorted? Tire stay on the rim? Not singed.
John Young here, author of the post under discussion.
Good comments and I can't pretend to be an expert, merely an architect with 35 years experience in New York City, but not a structural engineer or forensics investigator.
That said, I cooked up the report before seeing the NIST account, based on my study of the photos which I got from NIST via FOIA in March of 2010.
Shows how little I know about what you folks know.
Going on, though, I figured out the trajectory of the panel and wheel on my own, no big deal, granted, but I was amazed that the panel could have been knocked free by a high-velocity rubber object, and that it had traveled hundreds of feet horizontally and about a thousand feet down to land more or less perpendicular to the ground with almost no deformation or even much scouring of the parking lot, sidewalk and pavement.
That is hard to believe but just slightly possible, odd things happen I have learned and been stupefied and enlightened by.
So I wrote the report to see what the response would be. Then I found the NIST account, which seemed to me to be unsurprised by the event. Or maybe it was downplayed, I don't know.
What is hard for me to understand about your comments here is that given the short amount of time between the aircraft hit and the collapse of the South Tower, about two hours I think, that would give little time to stage a fake scene.
I have a bunch of photos taken of the surrounding area with those taken of the panel and they seem to be sequential, although they lack photo data to prove time of taking.
The photos I have do not have the NYPD tag on them.
BTW, the photos I got by FOIA are a collection of 3,160 released to ABC News in February 2010, which I requested shortly after ABC News published a couple of dozen of them. Anybody can request the collection by making an FOIA request to:
Catherine Flectcher
NIST FOIA Officer
catherine.fletcher@nist.gov
Looking forward to learning from you, taking a hit for being wrong. I made a slight revision to my report this morning adding a bit of info on the guesstimated dimensions of the wheel tire.
Cheers,
John
Check me out as a licensed architect in New York State, No. 10748, although Net forgery is out there.
Sorry, not perpendicular, landed more or less parallel to the ground.
John
wow back when spooked first addressed this issue of the wheel in the steel, our comments mostly focused on the impossibility of the wheel knocking out the steel and the impossibility of the sidewalk surviving the impact of the steel.
now that cryptome mentions the short amount of time between alleged plane hit and explosion of the tower i think that it would be impossible for any perps to haul in a truck/crane and unload a 7 ton section of steel with a wheel stuck in it, scatter some debris around, photograph it and make their getaway in under 2 hours.
i think that the perps must have either blocked off the street and set up their little photo-shoot well in advance of 9/11 or the entire thing was a photo-shop job.
h.
Congratulations, Spooked. I guess.
Just shows that your site has a stature which commands and demands
the attention of a wide range of people. Including professionals.
P.S. Is Mr. Young a member of "A&E for 911 truth"? Wonder what his opinion is of their research?
Not to hog the NIST photos of the panel location here is a sequence of 12 showing the area of the panel as the photographer moves along West and Cedar Streets shooting the streets and the burning towers.
http://cryptome.org/wtc-nist-panel.zip (10MB)
These are large photos compressed from about 20MB each. The original files names are retained with a prefix of 02-added. The file date is 5/14/2003 but that is probably when the photos were last assembled. There is no EXIF in the originals-just blank.
I know about and respect the hard work of A&E for 9-11 Truth but am not a member.
John
A&E for 9/11 "truth" does not even tolerate discussion of no planes much less the most likely-ness of the nuking of the wtc.
they must be totally under the control of the false 9/11 messiah steven jones and his nonsense super-thermite theory.
jones was a big-wig at los alamos, the very institution that is responsible for the design and testing of nuclear weapons, so it is no stretch of the imagination to assume that he would be the great dis-info leader of so-called 9/11 *truth*.
So, John (or "John") - why is the issue of a planted airplane wheel important to you when there's no credible evidence that a real plane crashed at the WTC?
Thank you, I'll hold.
Seeing the wheel-panel assembly for the first time in the NIST photos made me wonder how could such a thing happen. I'm not involved in debate on what occurred on 9/11, so don't know what to make of the dispute. It was this one event that got my attention for its unusual aspects architectural aspects, a long-time hobby to offset professional boredom, so I took a gander at the peculiar contraption which looks more like a million dollar NYC-ripoff sculpture than an accident.
I wrote a quick take on the tower collapses on 9/11, and left it at that:
http://cryptome.org/wtc-collapse.htm
Shoot me for it. Been a while since that service to the country.
Yep, John it is, Young, it is also, dumb as they sound, put up with them for longer than I wish. Been called a lot of other names which sound more truthful so I come running to them. Cryptome is the name of my other hobby which gets me in trouble and off the treadmill.
By accepting the (false) premise that a plane crashed into the WTC,
by definition, you are involved in what happened at the WTC.
I'm surprised that you don't seem to be concerned about the truthfulness of one of, if not THE most critical parts of the Official 9/11 Conspiracy Theory.
Google "The FBI polygraphers will clean-up this mess"
I didn't see plane(s) crash into WTC only video and photographs and have read a slew of stories telling a wide range of beliefs, speculations, doubts, accusations, sob stories, flat-out lies -- the usual mixture of human barking, whining, panhandling and religious fervor, more entertaining that educational, a lot of it coming from our prevaricating office holders and sitters. Yep, and from professionals like me, in particular, that smell of self-serving is right close to heart. Make a bare living at it.
I did examine and photograph the rubble on October 3, 2001, and saw something awful happened. Still waiting for a full and believable account. In the meantime, nothing wrong with cooking up stories to pass the time, the wilder the better, I'm licensed to tell the truth to protect the public, regulated by the same law as police officers and lawyers, so watch out.
Now why would the NYPD want to stage an peculiar device like the wheel and panel, sure, SOP to plant guns and drugs on innocent citizens, but this? And where did it go? I can imagine it being made of balsa wood by one of the thousands of skillful stagewrights in New York, put into place in a jiffy, then taken away, that happens dozens of nights on Broadway.
I can imagine the towers burning and collapsing being made for TV and cameras and newspapers, that has been done quite a bit since 9/11, in fact, way too much unless
the purpose is overkilling credibility.
I can image, wait, I have met them, persons becoming obsessed with 9/11 from a certain self-serving viewpoint of their imagination. This is pretty common in NYC, don't know about elsewhere.
Anybody talking too much about 9/11 around NYC is surely up to no good and running a hustle like Silverstein, Giuiliani, the security racketeers, the Port Authority, the pols, the weepers, the truthers, the liars, the fakers of illnesses, the thousands of con artists working the scam so decent people don't do that any more having heard it all and embarrassed at the same old chutzpah of victimization run amok.
Sure as hell the NIST is milking the case like a drama queen, withholding this and that "to protect the public," breeding fear, uncertainty, doubt, paranoia and suspicion. Hah, lessons learned from the national security pimps and whores, from us pros of the protection racket.
Most citizens have not a clue about a wheel, and don't care. A passport, maybe.
They went to way too much trouble to stage it. Misjudged the morons. Too easy. No NORAD. Went to sleep.
Silent airplanes? Butter buildings. No problem.
Unless the wheel stuff was to keep the curious guessing, a distraction.
Anyway the kinetic-energy exchange to moving beams is ridiculous. As Spooked notes, there is no chance that a hit would be symmetrical, and more likely, the beam moves to the side (joke, of course) and wheel ricochets away.
Also rivals the Pentagon lawn for tire damage.
And only one part? Magic wheel!
I wrote, mainly about another wheel, here:
http://ningens-blog.blogspot.com/2007/01/little-wheel-that-could.html
http://ningens-blog.blogspot.com/2007/01/little-wheel-that-could-not-part-2.html
I had a debate with Jones about this wheel, which he bowed out of when he could no longer support his argument, linked from here. He acknowledged the unlikelihood of the wheel passing through the tower, but tried to explain it as passing through a window.
http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=218&topic_id=5899&mesg_id=6000
John--
thanks for the info and for having an open mind. The new pics you got are quite interesting.
I think we can all agree that the wheel and column ensemble is bizarre.
What is bothersome to me, besides the wheel not really being tightly wedged in the gap there-- thus likely being planted-- are:
1) how little damage there is to the street and sidewalk from this massive and heavy object that supposedly came smashing down
2) how the ends of the columns look out of perspective in some shots, as it perhaps there was photo manipulation.
There is a lot of other evidence we think supports the idea that no planes hit the towers, and that would fit with them wanting to plant evidence of planes. And other plane debris around the WTC is odd-- the engine under the canopy at Church and Murray, the mysterious blue sheet metal debris north of the south tower are the most obvious.
Start with the basics. Otherwise, you end up wasting time arguing about bogus claims that are based on false premises.
That is the favorite tactic of paid and volunteer disinformation agents everywhere.
Example: assert that the airplane crash was witnessed by numerous bystanders as well as police officers and firemen and any claims that those witnesses are lying is despicable.
Another words, start an argument by making a claim that is deplorable to impugn the integrity of all those fine folks who merely
reported having seen a tragedy of unimaginable proportions: a plane crashing directly into a busy building.
An even better one is asserting that people witnessed "jumpers" and that only a sick person would mock what happened to the "jumper" victim, the victim's family, and the witnesses who will always live with the memory of what they saw that day. (on TV)
Mr. Young:
Everyone knows that there were people who suffered and died on 9/11.
Do you really expect that knowledgeable people will buy an argument that if photos show images of body parts it therefore follows that real planes crashed and that
OBL really did almost single-handedly defeat the entire US national defense system?
Oh, and by the way, we all know that different people have different opinions about what really happened, but KNOWLEDGEABLE
people who are ONLY interested in
the truth all agree that 9/11 was an inside job, that no planes crashed at the WTC or at the Pentagon, and video fakery was used by the government and the media to sell the Bush lies about
OBL and 9/11.
Your take would probably have the more desired effect at a site such as DU. More kindred spirits there and almost everyone there is naive about 9/11. Those who aren't are very easy to spot.
Seems if body parts are not cremated, or charcoaled, not from a plane, considering the initial fires, and would not exit the building, anyway. In fact, a contradiction with not a myriad of other items.
The three ring circus is orchestrated, to serve an agenda. Very successful, and with a huge budget.
If you know how to narrow it down, quite sane. This is not to mention at a ratio of a 100 to 1 those that are out there but choose not to participate in the internet exchanges.
Some of us assume that it has already gone the way of JFK, so there is no passion to hang anyone. Permits one to be quite rational. This is by no means a smoking gun proposition. The citizens will have to lose trust in the government when misery abounds, perhaps.
The logical approach is to start with impossible (logical deduction) and explain the mysteries.
So, "engineer", would you be so kind and thoughtful as to spell out, in plain English, what it is that you are trying to say?
I have a feeling that it might be interesting, coming from you, but I don't have a clue what it is.
The claim of planes is impossible, absurd, ridiculous.
But most can't follow the reasoning or don't want to or don't care.
Not much change here over time, right, if you go out on the street and check? (Flags all over.)
So probably can't depend (short term) on the truth to change much (stop wars, stop promoting hate, police state, wealth compression, corrupt congress), and it would be very gradual if it did. Too easy to pass the blame around for years, especially as there is so much confusion surrounding the issue (on purpose).
Seems like the possibility of generating a general mistrust (huge failures, exposures of many previous transgressions) to serve the same purpose may be looming. Then they back into 9/11 truth.
Thanks very much, "engineer". Now I understand...and I pretty much feel the same way as your views.
Cryptome--
Thanks for the additional photos. They are useful and add a new understanding of the "plane hits". Basically what I see is lots of building debris and chunks of red meat. But no obvious plane parts. It's rather striking.
@Cryptome
I plan on requesting the same collection of photos you did via FOIA. Just curious, were you charged anything for the disks?
No charge by NIST, surprising, for 10 of 11 DVDs, still awaiting one of them that was not provided, No. 2.
I've added a few items to my panel report:
Alleged eye-witness accounts of seeing the panel and wheel in the "parking lot" on West Street, one with comments about body parts arrayed.
Other relevant excerpts from NIST, FEMA and Boeing documents.
Three of my banal photos of the location of the panel on 17 March 2010, with nothing to see except a foundation with toxic standing water and exciting Bob the Builder machinery.
Wow, there must be hard-hatted, safety-vested featherbedders milking the WTC sinkhole. The site is still hiding behind blue tarps as if embarrassed at the stupefying make-work. Tourists wandering around looking for evidence of the disaster, a single large photo showing a collapsed tower, where else but on a pay-fee exhibit.
All the photos on the blue tarp show fantastically appealing futures, nothing like the truth, no money in that.
Hello,
This panel issue has got me all tied up in knots. The thing had to have not less than 108 connections defeated simultaneously, and that doesn't include the 18 (or more) pins that were embedded in the concrete floors. Most of the bolts were 7/8".
What surfaces are being acted upon? The faces of the 14" columns and the spandrel plates, nothing else.
Someone with expertise could determine the amount of energy necessary to toss this panel WITHOUT the connections and give us an idea of whether it could happen.
You'll note on images (series 01-Roll_3_09 through 14) the plumbing associated with the panel. This plumbing appears to be responsible for the damages to the truck and the scaffolding facade above.
Note also that the panel is bottom down towards the truck, meaning it did a 180 degree turn (or flipped sideways) before coming to rest.
We know this due to the arrangement of floor truss seats and damping connections on the spandrel.
I find it remarkable that on a busy Tuesday morning there were no cars crushed and no one on the street injured. Amazing.
I can not believe how ridiculous the collective claims of "an inside job" or planted plane parts. Thousands of people saw the planes. There were 67 phone calls from the planes describing the actions of the high jakers (all but 2 calls were seat back) You have hundreds of people who witnessed the passengers and terrorists get on the planes. You have DNA recovered of the passengers and terrorists at the site. You have way more then enough to prove in a court of law that 4 airplanes were high jacked and crashed on 9/11/01.
The buildings did not break any "laws of physics" to fall in the manner they did, in fact, a method of controlled demolition without explosives is where they use pneumatic presses to push out remaining structural support columns 3/4 of the way up a building, causing the top 1/4 to collapse down through the bottom 3/4. Google or youtube it and see for yourself kids.
Real explosives, not like the movies, are super loud and would have been audible for miles, echoing of the NY skyline. The amount of demo needed to cut a single 1ft steel columns would have been heard in New Jersey, yet none are heard on the video and audio tapes of the attacks.(yeah, I've used lots of demo)
The idea that the US gov can keep a secret is silly in itself. Congress was so pissed at the constant leaking of classified material, they held a classified session where they disseminated a classified report on all the leaks....Guess what, that report also leaked. We dump a bucket of water on a terrorists head on a small military controlled island in Cuba and it is on every single newspaper within weeks...
We have over 24 years of intelligence gathered from diverse arrays of sources, supporting the information gathered on Al Qaedas involvement in 9/11 and the attacks before and afterward. You want to be pissed about something, how about being pissed we didn't kill the Saudi royalty who aided the high jackers, be pissed we didn't bomb the hell out of the ISI Headquarters for funding the 9/11 operation, be pissed that engineers and physicists are self proclaimed leaders of the truth movement who state with certainty that explosives were used int he world trade centers, but when confronted by real experts, not cold fusion experts or theologians, they say these are just hypothesis...or theories of what happened..
No planes on 9/11? I can't believe there are people so far out of touch with reality to think this crap....
I would love to debate anyone on this subject, or any 9/11 related subject if there are any takers. 9 i know there will be allot of internet commandos replying, but probably none with balls to defend these lies in person or in public)
brownjj0@hotmail.com for follow up.
Enjoy!
Has this been cited? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UMUilwaE9Y
Missouri State Highway Patrol - http://411newyork.org/forum/topic/98571-missouri-state-highway-patrol/
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